Premise: that as we talk to one another, it is important that we ask one another about life through questions.
Has anyone asked you a question that made you think (or say), now that’s a good question! Please share it with us in the comments.
OR, if you are a mentor, or a person who helps apprentices or are a disciple-maker, would you PLEASE think about a good question that you have been asked or have asked another person. Or, are there a couple of questions that you use frequently when seeking to deepen a conversation beyond a surface small talk?
OR if you have a good question that you got from some writing or whatever and it impacted you, please share it.
PLEASE help us out and share your question(s) in the comments section below.
You don’t try to be profound, C. S. Lewis says that profundity comes naturally, it isn’t conjured up. Comments now please…
kingdom travelin' 
Does this mean I can ask you all my questions?
haha. (I ask a lot of questions!)
well sure!
Okay.,,, my current rash of questions all stem arournd the Church. There’s a lot swirling around these days about the church, it’s mission, how to besst do it, and how it really in many ways is an outdated model and people don’t think it represents Christ well, so many are leaving the church for various reasons, sometimes saying that they had to leave the church to save their faith or to truly follow Christ.
My question, in a simple form, is can you truly be a Christ follower without being a part of the Church? (big “C'” or little “c”) and can you truly be a part of the “big C” church if you aren’t a part of the local church?
(and I know this begs the question of what really IS “the church” but….. I’m trying to keep it simple here).
holy cow Tory!
nice softball you lobbed in here… well, let me think my way through this.
As you have already discovered, this is a a very hot topic in many locations… I saw a tweet the other day that said something like: “the church is not the 4th person of the Trinity”
You asked about someone being a Christ Follower w/o being in a church and differentiated between big C and little c. The “universal” (big C) church is the supernatural gathering of all believers united by the Holy Spirit – and I believe that at the moment of belief believers are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, at that moment you are in, you are the church PERIOD.
I believe it is essential that a believer be a part of a local church. I have had as much trouble with local churches (that is: with local church leaders – it’s actually not the local church, its usually deacons, elders, pastors, the ladies union, etc. that cause the trouble, it’s not the church, its the people – but then people make the church – so it’s a quandary, isn’t it. BUT people problems or not, we are called to be in community, to be disciples. But as I have been teaching and preaching, we are not called to build the church, Jesus said he’s got that, it IS our job to make disciples. Failure in disciple-making on the part of MOST churches is the reason for so many disgruntled people, they are often offended because they have not been discipled (let alone well), and the people who are driving them out haven’t been either. Heck, I would bet that the majority of pastors have not been discipled. So it’s no wonder.
BUT, none of this is an excuse for not being in church. NONE of it. I am pretty hard on this point, because its is about community. I heard a preacher say this a few years ago, “Christianity is a personal religion, not a private religion.” That was well said.
We are also called to work through our differences (in the local church and elsewhere). Why? Because we are family, we are, if we are believers (that’s a BIG IF sometimes) we are part of the universal church, we are brothers and sisters.
BUT since there is little discipleship, mentoring, and accountability then we are free to float around. Get mad, leave. It’s the American way. If I don’t like the way things are done, I’m just going somewhere else. I vote with my feet. This is a HUGE problem in the church. Okay, that is enough. You can read this and see if you want to follow up with another question.
Thanks for your reply; I also want to apologize for my misspellings and grammar; I typed all that on my iPad while in a McDonalds waiting for my children to finish with soccer practice!
First, I agree with you about the importance of belonging to a local (imperfect) gathering. There’s a wonderful quote by Charles Spurgeon about the church that I find encouraging. I’m sure you’ve read it, but it basically says that since church is made of imperfect people, it will always be imperfect and how wonderful that it is so; or else who’d be able to join?
One of the paragraphs says this:
“As I have already said, the Church is faulty, but that is no excuse for your not joining it, if you are the Lord’s. Nor need your own faults keep you back, for the Church is not an institution for perfect people, but a sanctuary for sinners saved by Grace, who, though they are saved, are still sinners and need all the help they can derive from the sympathy and guidance of their fellow Believers.”
I asked you my question because it is a personal one; I dearly love the church, both my local church and the universal Church, and even though it has flaws and disappoints and is infuriating, I find great hope in it. I was re-reading a part of What’s So Amazing about Grace by Philip Yancey the other day and saw this: “”As I looked back on my own pilgrimage, marked by wanderings, detours and dead ends, I see now that what pulled me along was my search for grace. I rejected the church for a time because I found so little grace there. I returned because I found grace nowhere else.”
I know that “discipleship” is a huge buzzword in the church culture today and I must say, I find it confusing. I’m involved in 2 Community Groups, attend church EVERY Sunday, and volunteer (too) many hours in my church…. and I wonder: what is discipleship? One definition I read is allowing someone to shadow your life as you follow Jesus, and that sounds so simple but so hard too, because it is easier to go to a community group for a few hours or to church or all this other “stuff” than to actually allow someone full access into your life; and who would want to or even have the time for that anyways?
Quite honestly, I struggle with community and discipleship and yet, I know that it is required of us. I guess I’m just looking for a way to make it painless and quick. Give me a program any day, but not access to my inner life, nor for me to seek to be that in someone else’s life; we’re all so busy! Who has time? I just wonder how discipleship can truly be practical in this day and age, especially where I live.
BTW, I agree with you that we are called to work through our differences and there are times my own church exasperates me, and (more often!) I it. It would be easier to just surround myself with folks that are more “like me” in background and beliefs and yet, that’s what I don’t want. I agree; we are family, and yet, there are times I wish I was a part of another family! I’ve never been one to “church hop” (or shop) but sometimes I look around at the church and admit: “I’m tired”. Would it be easier somewhere else?
You answered this to my satisfaction, chiefly because I already agreed with you. 🙂 The only question I have is: when is it okay to leave a local church and find another one? Or is it always wrong and pandering to my own comfort and demands?
Sorry so lengthy; it is a fault I am learning to be better at.
Afte re-reading this, I realize that I should clarify: I’m not trying to find ammunition or excuses to leave the church… but it is a question that sometimes comes up for me and I do wrestle with.
Also, though deep down, I really do agree with you on church community and discipleship, that doesn’t mean that I don’t still question all this! Yet I still remain optimistic for the local church and committed to it.
You have asked, in my estimation, THE QUESTION: What is disciple-making? or What did Jesus mean when he told us to make disciple? Thus HOW do we make disciples? Well as simply as I can, it is a relationship between human fellow disciples in which they willingly dig deep into one another’s heart, soul, mind and strength. It has not, through time been acomplished through (you used the word…) programs and it doesn’t seem to be happening very well through small groups (which I assume is what YOU meant when you said “community groups.” Indeed, it seems to me that you are typical within “evangelical Christianity” in your need to slow the heck down (2 community groups? Why?). I believe to be a ‘follower’, we have to find a person who is already following and walk with them through a learning life of following Jesus. In my experience this disciple-making is effective neither through groups nor through teaching (though I heartily affirm teaching and groups for growth and kingdom building) but through question asking. This is seldom effective in more than 3 or 4 people and needs to be REALLY frank and open (which you already stated you are not quite willing to do) being led by someone who has learned us and has our Jesus following in mind more than getting through a program. Otherwise we will just sit with a group of people for another lesson in which we sit nod and smile or nod and frown at the “great need of the world” WHEN the greatest need WE have is the GOSPEL every day being poured into us by the Holy Spirit who works through his Word and prayer and, here’s my pitch again, the fellow questioning of fellow disciples who know us well enough because we have broken down the walls. Hence, this post. What are the questions that haved helped us grow in depth? By the way, I have not forgotten your final(?) question. Yes, it is sometimes God’s plan to move us to a new local church. Hopefully though, we leave well, but we seldom do that well either. But you should leave with understanding and not just disappear (that’s too easy, but seldom satisfies). So, prayerfully, within the context of pastoral counsel, advise or at least a courtesy call. I KNOW sometimes people depart from churches BECAUSE of the pastor and that makes it hard. We left a church once because the pastor was on a theological path I could no longer support as a leader. Others suffered abuse under him, I just thought he was going in a direction I could no longer support as a leader. So as to not be divisive, we left as quietly as possible. He and I had lunch to discuss our departure and he called my doctrine of the church into question. In the thinking of some, church “membership” is like a marriage, so, no divorce. I hear that thinking and understand it, but I believe it is taken too far too often. You should NOT just walk away as though changing you favorite restaurant, you should leave well, or as well as you can, BUT if God wishes to use you elsewhere or you need to leave because your personal disciple-being-making is being hampered and god give you a fresh place to enter, serve and grow, then go. Just try to go well, but DON’T forsake the local church, even I – a rebel – will tell you that you are being rebellious and in danger of going from having a rebellious streak to having a rebellios spirit. Disciple-making should, in the vast majority of cases produce unity.
Btw Tory, what time zone are you in?
On 3/24/12, Tom Foley wrote: > You have asked, in my estimation, THE QUESTION: What is > disciple-making? or What did Jesus mean when he told us to make > disciple? Thus HOW do we make disciples? Well as simply as I can, it > is a relationship between human fellow disciples in which they > willingly dig deep into one another’s heart, soul, mind and strength. > It has not, through time been acomplished through (you used the > word…) programs and it doesn’t seem to be happening very well > through small groups (which I assume is what YOU meant when you said > “community groups.” Indeed, it seems to me that you are typical within > “evangelical Christianity” in your need to slow the heck down (2 > community groups? Why?). > I believe to be a ‘follower’, we have to find a person who is already > following and walk with them through a learning life of following > Jesus. > In my experience this disciple-making is effective neither through > groups nor through teaching (though I heartily affirm teaching and > groups for growth and kingdom building) but through question asking. > This is seldom effective in more than 3 or 4 people and needs to be > REALLY frank and open (which you already stated you are not quite > willing to do) being led by someone who has learned us and has our > Jesus following in mind more than getting through a program. Otherwise > we will just sit with a group of people for another lesson in which we > sit nod and smile or nod and frown at the “great need of the world” > WHEN the greatest need WE have is the GOSPEL every day being poured > into us by the Holy Spirit who works through his Word and prayer and, > here’s my pitch again, the fellow questioning of fellow disciples who > know us well enough because we have broken down the walls. > Hence, this post. What are the questions that haved helped us grow in > depth? > By the way, I have not forgotten your final(?) question. Yes, it is > sometimes God’s plan to move us to a new local church. Hopefully > though, we leave well, but we seldom do that well either. But you > should leave with understanding and not just disappear (that’s too > easy, but seldom satisfies). So, prayerfully, within the context of > pastoral counsel, advise or at least a courtesy call. > I KNOW sometimes people depart from churches BECAUSE of the pastor and > that makes it hard. We left a church once because the pastor was on a > theological path I could no longer support as a leader. Others > suffered abuse under him, I just thought he was going in a direction I > could no longer support as a leader. So as to not be divisive, we left > as quietly as possible. He and I had lunch to discuss our departure > and he called my doctrine of the church into question. In the thinking > of some, church “membership” is like a marriage, so, no divorce. I > hear that thinking and understand it, but I believe it is taken too > far too often. You should NOT just walk away as though changing you > favorite restaurant, you should leave well, or as well as you can, BUT > if God wishes to use you elsewhere or you need to leave because your > personal disciple-being-making is being hampered and god give you a > fresh place to enter, serve and grow, then go. Just try to go well, > but DON’T forsake the local church, even I – a rebel – will tell you > that you are being rebellious and in danger of going from having a > rebellious streak to having a rebellios spirit. > Disciple-making should, in the vast majority of cases produce unity. > >
I’m in California. I enjoyed your definition of discipleship and when you put it in those terms, then perhaps in some ways, I am being discipled, as I have some select people that allow my questions and that I’m very honest with, and I am challenged by them. I guess my reluctance in discipleship is that at times you feel that you SHOULD be open and honest with a certain group or person (like a small group) but somehow it doesn’t quite work like that. . I’m sure I need to trust more readily. I’m a questioner and often there is little tolerance for that and I even wonder if there’s a time where you are supposed to set aside questions and “grow up”? The ‘mark of maturity” seems to be trust and staying positive and there’s an underlying tension that to truly belong, you have to conform to that. I once brought up a few more difficult questions in a small group and they just stared at me, seemingly horrified, that I would question or hold a viewpoint that wasn’t 100% positive.
I’m in two small groups because one is a larger group that I attend with my husband and the other is a small women’s group that I lead only because I saw a need that wasn’t being met. I don’t even like “women’s groups” and yet, there is a beauty there of how vastly different we all are and yet really are unified Christ. I wouldn’t call it “discipleship” but it is beautiful.
As for church and leaving a church, I guess I have always taken more of a “it’s like marriage” approach to churches. We seldom leave a church, and mostly have because we’ve moved too far to attend it properly. There has been one instance otherwise and it was because of a division that we were lumped into “the leaving side” even though we hadn’t even chosen a side and felt too awkward to return. It is so disheartening to see such little grace in both sides of a division! My family ended up not going to a church for 2 years after that…… and I was pretty content to never go back but my husband felt otherwise. And he was right and it has been good to be back, though the closer you get to church the more you realize its brokenness. And your own as well.
I hear what you are saying and it makes much sense and I thank you for taking the time to dialogue with me. You’ve been very thorough and have given me much to think about, as well as encouragement.
Thanks be to God.